Trust, perhaps more than Question

[Paka]

1) No, I've never heard it suggested SERIOUSLY by biblical scholars, or in 12 years of Parochial School or in 20 years of being a Catholic, that mankind is the product of incest. No. I've never heard that suggested seriously.

2) Less is more sometimes on a message board. Endless quotes from the bible, do not help make your case to people that don't believe the bible to be taken literally. I get it that you believe it word for word. I just cannot fathom why.
Ever play telephone as a kid?
Your answer is basically: Because I choose to believe 2 people populated the entire planet through incest. This is somehow magically "ok" because at the time, things were different. And all the events that happened to mankind through for 1000's of years prior to the ability to transcribe, where recorded accurately when they finally gained that skill.

3) Are you not aware that some Christian faiths, believe the Old Testament is not to be taken literally? It's an allegory.

4) Hey Pat! Aren't you the one that said, "less is more".

5) God is love. That's enough.

[David]

Well, as its been discussed... we all have our opinions.

Just curious though, how do you know God is love? If the Bible is written by sinful man and not God, and its from the Bible that we learn God is love... maybe God isn't love after all. That is just the opinion of different people, from an unreliable source. In fact, according to all of that, and according to science (you spoke of the homo sapiens and all) there really is no God, all of the universe "just happened".

So where is the line drawn of what someone believes and what its according to? If there is a God, are we only to be judged (if there is any judgment to be had) according to our own personal beliefs?

If that is the case indeed, then I guess we are all really okay.

[Paka]

Well, as its been discussed... we all have our opinions.

Kind of my whole point. Certainly you can understand how DECENT, non-Christian people, that hear someone speak in absolutes, that quite frankly come across as judgmental and is if they, Christians, have all the answers, might make some bristle? No?

Just curious though, how do you know God is love?

I pick and choose to take from the bible or any book, what I want. No different than you or anyone else. I could easily post some quotes that are a little harder to explain than John 13:34-35.

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Buddha had some cool things to say too! And don't get me going on Confucius. That guy rocked!

[David]

I understand where you are coming from Pat.

I believe if someone, anyone, believes something... such as I do, and such as you do yourself... they give absolutes. I give absolutes based on one particular thing. You give your absolutes based on something different. But we all give absolutes on what we believe to some degree or another. Otherwise I think the person would be a little "wishy-washy" with their line of thinking or belief.

I respect what you believe, everyone has the right to think and believe the way they want. God gave us that right (well, I BELIEVE God gave us that right, maybe someone believes differently).

I don't often speak to someone who believes the way you do, so if you don't mind me asking you (and if you do mind, then just say so, no big deal), how do you view how God's word proving itself with prophecy, such as I mentioned in an earlier post? Do you view it as "yea, see God knows the future" and leave it at that? Does it do anything to prove God's word as true? I'm curious how you feel about that.

David

[anne]

I will probably get this wrong..but i remember that I read/heard somewhre that the bible was written 75 years or so after the death of Jesus! how can anyone have kept everything in order and correctly? that is a long time..who keeps notes that long?

all I know is everything that was shoved down my throat growing up doesn't make any sense as I get older!

no one really knows for sure on any thing!

it is just what makes YOU feel better!

I have tried for years to get answers and all I get is double talk and the run around...but no straight forward. answers..


anne

[midwayislander]

Well said, Anne.

I don't for a moment believe that the Bible is a book of facts. I do believe it is a holy book and as such deserves to be respected. But, even some of the nuns and priests and pastors I have known over the years say it's a great story written by fallible men. As I said elsewhere, most of Jesus' followers were illiterate. So they had to pass everything on from memory. And we all know how memory is: some of the "bad" things get worse; some aren't so bad after a while. Some of the "good" things get better and some change to be not so good.

No matter how one believes, I don't think Christians have the edge on all of this. Even the book of Buddha, the Torah, and the Koran make mention of a Supreme Being and state that this Supreme Being is Love. How do I know that God is Love? Easy. The goodness and love that is done in the world makes mankind react with love and kindness. Evil begets evil. No body, no entity, could create the magnigicance we see in the scenery, in the sky, in the miracle of life, in the peace and tranquility that can be felt and not be love!

As far as the "bad" things that happen in this life is concerned. Some is just pure evil: murder, torture, etc. Some is sad and painful for us: death, illness, poverty, etc. But the sad, painful stuff that happens may not be understood by us at this time. Someday, maybe it will be understood. All I know is that, no matter how much it hurt ME to lose my parents and my husband, I know that THEY no longer suffered! And yes, I do believe in an afterlife. I also believe that we get to come back again. No, I don't have proof of it. I just believe that way and feel it in my soul. Believing that God is Love and that we have an afterlife makes my very soul rejoice.

[David]

Hey Anne,

On the question of when the Bible was written... the Old Testament was penned from a time about 1,600 years before Christ to the "most recent" being 400 years before Christ. On the New Testament, they were written anywhere between 20 years after his death and resurrection, to the oldest being about 70 years after (the book of Revelation).

One thing I would like to see you guys opinion on is what I had mentioned earlier about the many, many prophecies given in the Old Testament hundreds of years before they were fulfilled, and each of them being fulfilled completely and fully to the letter. Doesn't this give you guys are "great feel" that the Bible, though penned by man's hands, that it was inspired by the Spirit of God?

Anne, there are answers to your questions. I know many people believe that there are errors to the Bible, and I certainly know there are so many "teachers" that give all kinds of confusing answers to the questions that many of us have. If you want to know answers, ask questions and I will do my best to help you with them.

Were the answers I gave you earlier helpful?

Oh and Anne, one other thing... yes, it would seem difficult for men to keep records straight so long after they happen... but it is God that gave them the information. Some of it was from memory, but it is God that told them what to write. Obviously, the Bible could have been 100 times as big if everything was written by man... but God had each thing purposed. A great example of this is the book of Genesis. The person who penned it, Moses, lived somewhere around 2,000 years after the things in Genesis happened.

[Paka]

I understand where you are coming from Pat.

The first place I'm coming from is conversation. The back and forth between some of us may seem confrontational, it's but one I'd have sitting around the kitchen table or even better, at the BEACH!, with anyone here and feel good about it. There may be heated moments, but I think we'd laugh a lot too as we discussed.

I believe if someone, anyone, believes something... such as I do, and such as you do yourself... they give absolutes. I give absolutes based on one particular thing. You give your absolutes based on something different. But we all give absolutes on what we believe to some degree or another. Otherwise I think the person would be a little "wishy-washy" with their line of thinking or belief.

Call me wishy.

I believe there are some wonderful ideas and philosophy's in the Bible. But I do not believe that God wrote it through men. Not for a minute.

I am an agnostic. But sometimes, I take positions that sound like I am a believer. I am not.

Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.



But I'm an agnostic that is not so arrogant to not think it possible, maybe even very possible, that it is likely something besides us exists - very likely a God, Supreme Being - it really doesn't matter what you call it, IMO. But my agnosticism stems from the strong belief, that the Universe is so vast to make it incomprehensible - especially to people when the bible and other GOOD BOOKS were written. Naturally, they tried their best to make sense of their world with all kinds of folklore and myth.

I respect what you believe, everyone has the right to think and believe the way they want. God gave us that right (well, I BELIEVE God gave us that right, maybe someone believes differently).

See above.

I don't often speak to someone who believes the way you do, so if you don't mind me asking you (and if you do mind, then just say so, no big deal), how do you view how God's word proving itself with prophecy, such as I mentioned in an earlier post? Do you view it as "yea, see God knows the future" and leave it at that? Does it do anything to prove God's word as true? I'm curious how you feel about that.

See above, again.

Seriously, I hope you have a better idea of what I believe and why, even though you obviously don't agree, you should be able to understand why or how I might come to the conclusions I have.

Now I have a question for you. This is not an accusation as I don't you how you feel about what I'm about to ask.

Why is it so many fundamentalist Christians, that believe abortion is wrong because it's killing a baby, have no problem supporting wars that kill other babies? That just one problem have when trying to understand the mind of "Christians".

Thou Shalt Not Kill

Furthermore, any self-identified Christian should be against the death penalty and all but defensive wars. No?

[midwayislander]

David, I think you hit on it when you asked about the "great feel" about the Bible. That's probably how and why we know that God is Love and the difference between right and wrong. One gives us a great feel and the other doesn't. I do agree that the writers of the Bible were inspired by God. I don't believe that God wrote the Bible. And that's why we cannot take the whole Bible absolutely literally. A good deal of it, I believe, can be taken literally but there are some parts that just have to be left to intepretation or to our own inspiration of what was meant or what the writer was trying to convey. It's just like with what we write throughout this forum. Everyone reads a submission but not everyone will get the same meaning or interpretation.

No matter, the Bible is a great guideline for how to conduct onesself and how to live life in general. And, I think, that's all it's meant to be: a guideline. Otherwise, God would not have given us free will. Remember, too, this is all JUST A CONVERSATION WE ARE ALL HAVING!!! None of us are right or wrong. We're just conversing and sharing thoughts. David is not going to change my ideas; Pat is not going to change my idea; I'm not going to change anyone's ideas. None of us know the complete, absolute answer; only God knows that and we'll find out when we sit before Him.

Agnosticism isn't necessarily a "bad" thing. A good healthy dose of skepticism is good; that way, you're not tricked into believing things that may or may not be "wrong". As far as the question of killing: I don't believe in taking the life of a child or of murdering a child in the womb. That being said, there are always exceptions to the rules and, I think, even God knows that. A pregnancy that would kill the mother may be necessary to terminate; a pregnancy brought about by rape, abuse, etc., may be cause for termination. Wars happen. They aren't necessarily what should happen but they do. And innocent people die. When one is fighting for his own life and the lives of others, one sometimes has to do things that go against their very being. What makes it wrong is killing for the pure meanness of it. What makes it right.....nothing makes it right but it's something that's going to happen because all of us idiots have free will and none of us think alike.

[Paka]

None of us know the complete, absolute answer

You sure you aren't an agnostic?

Wars happen.

Yep, by choice usually. Keep in mind Kate, my comments are pointed at those that believe the Bible is to be taken literally. We haven't have a war of choice in a LONG time. This makes us a nation that murders children (and adults) and this killing is no different than abortion, according the parameters set by some Christians.

I see no where in the Ten Commandments where is says:

Thou Shalt not kill, except where you figure it's ok.

[midwayislander]

I agree with you on that, Paka. The 10 commandments says Thou Shalt Not Kill. Period. And I, personally, would not intentionally kill another being. This doesn't make me better than anyone who would kill someone. But, on the same line, I would fight to the death to try to protect my country and my fellow citizens from someone trying to kill us! And if that meant having to kill someone who's trying to kill me, my family, my loved ones, then I would certainly change my opinion and kill! It doesn't make me a hypocrite. It just means there were some other factors added into the quotient that made me do something that I had to do. And when my time comes to stand before God, I'm sure I'll have to answer for it.

Yeah, there are times I could probably call myself an agnostic. But not really. I do deffinately believe in a Supreme Being whom I happen to call God. My father was Native American. He never called this Supreme Being "God"; he always referred to Him as "Great Spirit" or "Father Healer". But I have no doubt in a Supreme Being. My doubts lie more in Christian vs non-Christian. I believe that Jesus is the Christ. But I also believe in Buddha and think he was a great teacher. And I believe Mohammed was a great teacher. I do not believe non-Christians are lost and will not be taken to be with God. I do not believe Christians are the only ones with the answers. I do not believe any of us have the answers. I believe only God has the answers and we'll learn those answers when he's darned good and ready to reveal them to us.

I also do know that I, personally, would be very lost in my life if I did not have the belief and the hope that this Supreme Being who brought forth this life, this world, and Lord knows what else exists. To think something along the line of "You're born, you live, then you die. And nothing else exists" would break my heart. I personally need the hope of something more that exists.

[Paka]

I agree with you on that, Paka. The 10 commandments says Thou Shalt Not Kill. Period. And I, personally, would not intentionally kill another being. This doesn't make me better than anyone who would kill someone. But, on the same line, I would fight to the death to try to protect my country and my fellow citizens from someone trying to kill us! And if that meant having to kill someone who's trying to kill me, my family, my loved ones, then I would certainly change my opinion and kill! It doesn't make me a hypocrite. It just means there were some other factors added into the quotient that made me do something that I had to do. And when my time comes to stand before God, I'm sure I'll have to answer for it.

Kate. The gist of your comment about being willing to kill someone to defend is what's called a straw man or a red herring. I NEVER suggested one shouldn't defend. Never. Don't think any sane person thinks otherwise.

But again, my question was to those who claim the bible is to be taken literally.

How about Thou Shalt Not Kill? Is that an absolute statement or not?

I also do know that I, personally, would be very lost in my life if I did not have the belief and the hope that this Supreme Being who brought forth this life, this world, and Lord knows what else exists. To think something along the line of "You're born, you live, then you die. And nothing else exists" would break my heart. I personally need the hope of something more that exists

I certainly sympathize with your feelings and trying to personalize an afterlife with a God that you can relate to.

But the universe is incomprehensible.

There are more stars in the universe, than grains of sand on all the beaches in the world. That is incomprehensible.

If what we know about the universe is beyond our understanding, it would be a bit presumptuous of us to think we can even remotely understand what made it. JMO

[mauibeachbum]

Pat-
Some good points.

I have had some real concerns with that Commandment also and have no real comment about it at this point.
Rich

[midwayislander]

And, I agree with you on the idea of the immensity of the universe! This also is an area that shows the enormous ego of mankind! How dare we humans, we earthlings think that this planet is the ONLY planet in the universe to sustain life?! Maybe life as we know it, but what makes us so great? These are things we can only speculate on. Ain't got no definitive evidence!

[mauibeachbum]

Yes Kate, it goes back a long way doesn't it G1.1. It is so easy for us to forget the beginning isn't it.

I compare it to kids of today, who without twitter, facebook, and such; they get bored so fast.
As kids, we had none of that. We didn't need to worry about being supervised every minute. We actually enjoyed unsupervised time so we were allowed to be creative and have fun on our own. It was safe fun.

Sure, I think back but not far enough at times to really appreciate what beginning really means.

Rich

[midwayislander]

Amen to that, Rich!

[Todd]

Anne,
I seem to remember from my college days that family history in those days were scrolled around the length of a shephards staff and that was handed down from generation to generation.
On the subject of thou shall not kill, there is somewhere in the bible that men kill as soldiers shall be forgiven. You all could be right and you all could be wrong. Do we really know what he truth is without hard science to support or discount anything we know today?
An old favorite movie of mine was Johnny Dangerously. When the word went down the grapevine,it became a completely different message but Johnny still got the message correctly because he stated that he knew this grapevine already. Maybe that is some truth in that also?
As to the bible being a gutdeline for living our lives and know the difference between right and wrong, I think the focus of all beliefs work towards that same goal. I think what becomes confusing is all the different versions of the same book. I would venture to say without really knowing,that the first bible was in the langauge of the area and time that it was written such as in Hebrew for example. Who translated it into English antway? Did they have use a third langauge to get the translation correctly? I bring that up because to get the correct meaning of a phrase from Vietnamese to English, we use the French langauge to acomplish that goal but not 100% of the time though. I'm thinking that this could be a common practice for many langauges.
\I've been reading all of the posts from this thread and think that everyone could be right. How are we to know in modern times what is true or false or right or wrong?

[Paka]

Now I have a question for you.

Why is it so many fundamentalist Christians, that believe abortion is wrong because it's killing a baby, have no problem supporting wars that kill other babies? That just one problem have when trying to understand the mind of "Christians".

Thou Shalt Not Kill

Furthermore, any self-identified Christian should be against the death penalty and all but defensive wars. No?

David?

[David]

Paka,

Well I guess you know you are asking me a rather difficult question. It gets into something that everyone has strong but varied opinions about. Its a little religious, a little political, and potentially a little "oh how could you think that way". But I'll try to answer it as "neutral" as possible.

As far as abortion is concerned, I could go on how I feel about it... but don't want to so much that it draws strong opinions from other readers who don't agree. I believe abortion is wrong for the simple fact that it kills an infant. The larger part of the argument on the "other side" of the issue is that a woman has a right to do what she wants with her body, and if the "child" is taken early enough, its not really a child yet. Which that argument in itself gets into a whole "God thing" about when life begins. However, I do think there should be some given way that a woman has the right to end her pregnancy if its a life-death situation, the result of a rape, or the result of incest. But there again, many will jump on that saying that kind of statement is hypocritical because I believe abortion is okay in some cases and not in others. As just a plain old guy, I would have a very difficult time telling a woman who is raped that she has to have that child. That just wouldn't be right.

On killing children in wars... who likes wars? Who wants a war? Do I believe war is necessary? In some cases, obviously yes. In other cases no. But then that starts to get very political on when that time is. Defensive wars, always. But where do you draw the line of what all is considered defensive. There may be a few people who believed that we should only have attacked the Japanese in WWII because we were only attacked by them. They may say that attacking Germany was wrong (I of course don't believe that, and don't know anyone personally who does, just making the point). Was attacking Germany wrong since technically they had not attacked us yet? If we left Hitler alone, Germany would have become so powerful that we would have been in a load of trouble keeping them away from us later. So using WWII for example, is that considered defensive? Obviously against Japan it would, but what about Germany? (and again, don't let any of you think I've lost my marbles, we definitely needed to attack Germany... just making a point by using Germany in WWII as an example).

And to bring up another point... what do you do with an enemy who chooses to fight their battles in the homes and streets of towns, right where the children are? Obviously if you are fighting battles in the streets, there will be children harmed. I think what we are doing in the Middle East right now is a good example of that, and how I think our enemies know our "morals" as a country (that was hard to say... our morals?, good grief) that we don't just go into an area and demolish it. They know that when some innocent civilians are killed, that its on the front page of our news back home. So they choose to hide behind the civilians. But again, don't let this get political.

On the death penalty... that one I'll leave alone for the most part. Too political. But I'll answer the question with a question... if a man broke into your home where your wife and kids are, and he was armed... would it be wrong to kill him at the moment of the crime? I hardly think anyone would say that's wrong. If that particular man happened to shoot and kill one of your kids during the crime, but gave up when the cops showed up... why does that change what was right and possible during the attack, now that he is behind bars? On the death penalty, its a difficult debate. I certainly understand when it is a horrible, murderous crime and the person is OBVIOUSLY the one who committed the murder. But what about the times when the person, even though found guilty in a court of law, is later found innocent (such as DNA evidence)? That possibility makes me uneasy with the death penalty... although I'm definitely the type of person, that if a man broke into my home to hurt anyone in my family... they are leaving in a body bag.

Pat, I hope I have answered your questions. Let me ask one of you... you quote the Bible and say that you choose different parts of it to believe (as well as other writings). How does someone know what parts to take as truth, what parts are just "stories", and what parts are just totally wrong because man wrote it? If God had anything to do with it, is God not powerful enough to keep his word true? Does it boil down to what a person "feels" is true? If God is eternal, how does truth change about God with time? Man has changed his beliefs and ways throughout history. Does that make what we feel is right and true today, the "most true"? Does that mean what people will feel in 100 years even more true because as time goes on we're getting it more correct? If not, does that mean that man had the truth about God figured out better 1,000 years ago?

What is truth, when it comes to God?

[Paka]

Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Kill

Paka,

Well I guess you know you are asking me a rather difficult question.

If you truly believe the bible is the LITERAL word of God, then it shouldn't be difficult. And again, if you truly believe this, then it should be much more simple than the answers you posted. Either it's black and white, or not?

IMNSHO, you choose the parts of the bible you want to take literally and other parts, you interpret.

I AM NOT SAYING YOU ARE A BAD PERSON FOR THIS. BUT YOU AND OTHER "BORN AGAINS" ARE NOT HONEST WITH YOURSELF REGARDING THIS ISSUE.

As far as abortion is concerned, I could go on how I feel about it... but don't want to so much that it draws strong opinions from other readers who don't agree. I believe abortion is wrong for the simple fact that it kills an infant. The larger part of the argument on the "other side" of the issue is that a woman has a right to do what she wants with her body, and if the "child" is taken early enough, its not really a child yet. Which that argument in itself gets into a whole "God thing" about when life begins. However, I do think there should be some given way that a woman has the right to end her pregnancy if its a life-death situation, the result of a rape, or the result of incest. But there again, many will jump on that saying that kind of statement is hypocritical because I believe abortion is okay in some cases and not in others. As just a plain old guy, I would have a very difficult time telling a woman who is raped that she has to have that child. That just wouldn't be right.

For not wanting to go on about it... Again you are choosing to interpret. FWIW, I agree with the outcome of your interpretation, but it's not a literal interpretation of the bible.

On killing children in wars... who likes wars? Who wants a war? Do I believe war is necessary? In some cases, obviously yes. In other cases no. But then that starts to get very political on when that time is. Defensive wars, always. But where do you draw the line of what all is considered defensive. There may be a few people who believed that we should only have attacked the Japanese in WWII because we were only attacked by them. They may say that attacking Germany was wrong (I of course don't believe that, and don't know anyone personally who does, just making the point). Was attacking Germany wrong since technically they had not attacked us yet? If we left Hitler alone, Germany would have become so powerful that we would have been in a load of trouble keeping them away from us later. So using WWII for example, is that considered defensive? Obviously against Japan it would, but what about Germany? (and again, don't let any of you think I've lost my marbles, we definitely needed to attack Germany... just making a point by using Germany in WWII as an example).

Yes, WWII is defensive. The case against Germany and Japan is easily provable. The case against Viet Nam or or Iraq, not so easy.

IF someone wants to debate "war" please start a new thread.

On the death penalty... that one I'll leave alone for the most part. Too political. But I'll answer the question with a question... if a man broke into your home where your wife and kids are, and he was armed... would it be wrong to kill him at the moment of the crime? I hardly think anyone would say that's wrong. If that particular man happened to shoot and kill one of your kids during the crime, but gave up when the cops showed up... why does that change what was right and possible during the attack, now that he is behind bars?

Straw man argument. No one in this thread, has posted that we don't have the right to kill in self defense or to protect our families.

Pat, I hope I have answered your questions. Let me ask one of you... you quote the Bible and say that you choose different parts of it to believe (as well as other writings). How does someone know what parts to take as truth, what parts are just "stories", and what parts are just totally wrong because man wrote it? If God had anything to do with it, is God not
powerful enough to keep his word true? Does it boil down to what a person "feels" is true? If God is eternal, how does truth change about God with time? Man has changed his beliefs and ways throughout history. Does that make what we feel is right and true today, the "most true"? Does that mean what people will feel in 100 years even more true because as time goes on we're getting it more correct? If not, does that mean that man had the truth about God figured out better 1,000 years ago?

You must have missed the part (twice, I believe) where I identified myself as an agnostic and I said I pick and choose to take from any book, what I find good, important or inspirational. I've never stated that the bible was a rag to be ignored. Quite the contrary. There are great stories of inspiration. Just like countless authors throughout the centuries have written inspirational stuff. .

What is truth, when it comes to God?

We might find out when we die, but then again, there's no guarantee of that.